Some of you may have read the rant I posted on the poll that Retro DBZ CCG made a few days ago on why I feel sensei decks should be changed. While it was poorly pieced together (as rants often are), it’s seems as if Joshman felt I hit on a few good points. He ended up approaching me to put it in article form. Hopefully I’ll be able to get my points across in a more organized way.
Should this be the route of all Sensei?
I really feel as though Sensei Decks should have always worked like Piccolo Sensei. Are Sensei Deck cards really good enough to possibly lose cards that are relied on to either make a deck work, or utility cards that are nearly always needed (like Trunks Energy Sphere)? Before Kid Buu was released, Dragon Ball decks were out of luck. They couldn’t run some of the fantastic cards that are Sensei Deck Only. Unfortunately, we never had a major even with the Z only format up to Kid Buu, so Piccolo Sensei didn’t have a real use until Expanded started.
I understand the initial concern of allowing all sensei decks to act as Piccolo Sensei. People feel that control decks will become too over powered. I personally feel that is not true at all.
Looking back on my time playing control, I feel as though the change would give it a boost, but I think beat down decks will get more out of it. Back in 2004, Joey Dicarlo and I built Orange MBS Gohan Eternal Dragon’s Quest for Expanded Worlds. I’m sure most players remember what the deck does. It acts as the same as most Gohan EDQ decks, running off of Stop!, Momentum, Powerful Followers, etc, to help safely win by Dragon Ball victory. That, combined with Orange’s great control, allowed the deck to play extremely consistently. We ran Piccolo Sensei, and I believe we had something like 2 Black Scout Maneuver, 2 You’re Invited, Huh???, and Recoome’s Vogue Drill. You’re Invited, Huh???, and Black Scout Maneuver are pretty standard Sensei Deck cards for most decks, Recoome’s Vogue Drill was the only true meta choice we made. It was there to deal with Black’s ability to remove cards from the top/bottom of decks. All we wanted was a safeguard against losing before getting an EDQ off.
Had there been a sure choice, we’d have used it. We opted to go with a meta choice. The problem with not using Piccolo Sensei, is that you can lose cards that are just as needed. If playing beat down against control, you can lose Trunks Energy Sphere, City in Turmoil, or any assortment of other needed removal cards. Essentially making your Sensei use null and void.
I already feel as if beat down has an up hill battle against control. Let’s face it, control can shut off beat down’s removal cards (or possibly remove them), they can easily mitigate damage with cards like Android 20’s Absorbing Drill, and they often have the ability to end combat. Beat down’s only prayer is to get off a Gohan’s Kick or a Majin Buu’s Fury, and even those don’t guarantee a successful combat with cards like Hercule’s Dream Sequence. The possibility of losing those needed cards when trying to add more beat control can really hurt.
I had that happen at DieCon 2005. I was playing against Joey Dicarlo, running the Krillin Energetic EDQ deck we had made. My sensei deck is pretty much dedicated to beating control. Cards like Black Pivot Kick, Black Front Punch, Black Star Dragon Ball 6, Don’t You Just Hate That, and more. I Sensei’ed in 12 cards, and lost something like 2 Broly’s Might, 2 Trunks Energy Sphere, 2 Black Evil Glare, a City in Turmoil, and the rest was an assortment of attacks. I didn’t lose one block. I’d have probably been better off not Sensei’ing at all. I gained extra removal, but in place of a lot of my control. After that, he had no problem with combat cards, or dealing with mine as I almost never had backup.
A good card, but is it worth losing a random piece of your deck for?
I don’t feel like a Sensei should be a double edge sword. It should be there to allow you to shift your deck towards certain match ups.
I was a big Magic player back in the day. I loved how you could build your main deck into the most consistent version, and fill your sideboard with ways to deal with bad matchups. I feel the same should be in Z. I don’t feel like you should have to pack so much utility in your main deck, watering down your win condition.
Dragon Ball Z also has so many playable decks compared to other games. I’m of the kind who feels that luck should be as little a part in card games as possible. I understand that luck is a part of gaming, but minimizing it is what makes for great decks. With so many decks, luck becomes a much bigger factor. The luck of the match up. You are now hoping to run into less of X kinds of decks, and Y amount of others.
Beat down decks have to run a few more blocks against other beat down decks, while control decks can either block, or just end combat. Allowing decks to bypass what I went through in the example against Joey can really help them be more consistent.
Consistency is the reason why Orange is widely considered to be the best style. It has a ton of control elements with a wide assortment of drills, and a mastery with built in searching. It can already run some of the more match up oriented drills (ie, Orange Halting Drill) since it can just discard them to the mastery for others.
What would happen to Piccolo Sensei? Well, it wouldn’t get used, but guess what? These are Retro DBZ CCG tournaments! If you want to play with Score only rules, awesome. While I would use these rules when playing with friends, others don’t have to use them.
Another discussion of changes with the sensei decks are the Sensei Cards. I feel like allowing any cards in the sensei is a no brainer. The majority of styled sensei cards are pretty awful. And even most of the good ones don’t always fit into the style deck you are playing.
I really don’t feel like there is much discussion needed on this point. We played with it this way in Expanded. As awful as Expanded was, I feel like they got the sensei part right.
New Sensei rules would help improve lower tier Sensei.
I believe with a sensei change, we’ll see a wider array of Senseis used. Control decks not being forced to run Piccolo Sensei can now use South Kai (Goku Ball using ChiChi), or West Kai to help deal with drills. They can also run North Kai when going on the offensive against Orange decks, not allowing them to use their mastery to get drills. They can do all this, while still being able to use sensei deck cards.
Beat down decks can now get rid of blocks to bring in anti control cards, or get rid of City in Turmoil to allow for better draws against other beat down decks.
Most decks should get some sort of boost if these changes go through, but I believe we would see a more stable environment with beat down having a better chance.
Great article…I think the reason that Sensei Decks were ‘a double-edged sword’ goes hand in hand with the really inconsistent power level in SDO cards. Do you make Senseis like a sideboard, and have weaker cards that don’t break the game? DBZ’s incredible ability to tutor out cards could make this into a game of brutal meta and sideboarding, where your core deck becomes less relevant. Do you focus on the sensei power instead, which is what sort of ended up happening — which made it more like a drill or mastery than a true sideboard. And then in later sets like Kid Buu we even invented cards that manipulated the sideboard as a thing, removing cards and adding control factors to the empty space.
As the game progressed, we know a lot of the new mechanics were shadows of their original concepts, due to abuse or the inability to balance out/accommodate older cards. Sensei decks were a relatively shallow & simple concept that ended up getting pretty convoluted, almost more so than any other mechanic.
In conclusion, bring back pre-errata Bulma Sensei!
In my opinion I think the sensei decks worked well. Maybe thats because I never sensei’d in huge amounts of cards, usually around 5 or so b/c of the sensei’s I ran until I grabbed a Piccolo Sensei.
My main complaint with people about the sensei deck, and this has nothing to do with the author of the article; its just my opinion since we are discussing sensei decks. Is that this isn’t MTG, its DBZ. After MTG developed their side deck, it now created a “hey this is how a side deck should be” kinda complex. Why shouldn’t your side deck run the risk of losing key cards? If your opponent can get by sensei’ing out a few cards, why shouldn’t you suffer a risk of senseiing in like 21 cards from the elder kai sensei.
Its a matter of philosophy, should players be able to pick apart decks before a game and suffer no loss to their own? Why not? Clearly you can tell that I was an fan of the sensei deck the way it was. Just my 2 cents.
I had been thinking about Sensei’s a lot lately. And the reason for this article was due to the poll that Retro DBZ posted. My roommate is on the polar opposite side of it, feeling that they shouldnt be touched. I understand everything from both sides of the argument. My whole dilemma, is that I hate seeing people build a solid core deck, teching the matchups they have a hard time with in the sensei, only to lose stuff they needed from the main. There are so many viable decks out there, that I hate seeing THAT much luck being added to an environment where matchups can make or break it. I just hate seeing decks get hurt by watering down the strength of the main deck due with tech so as not to get raped by the sensei as I have so many times before.
That being said, and with this having been on my mind a lot lately. What if it was changed to something like:
-All cards allowed in sensei’s.
-When you sensei in, choose and reveal all cards to go in, first sensei the old school way for Sensei Deck Only cards, then Piccolo Sensei the rest.
After thinking about it, this is what Id vote for.
DBM brought up a good point that I had thought about before, Sensei Deck Only cards are pretty powerful. While I dont feel the sensei deck as a whole should be a double edged sword, I could still understand those cards going in that way. Piccolo sensei would still have it’s use. It would allow control decks to use Black Scout Maneuver, and other SDO cards without loss of a ball. (Though I feel it should be errated to more space if a change close to this happens)
Like I said, I get both sides of the argument, and I wouldnt be angry/sad if the only change that happened was the Expanded sensei rule. But I like to see as little luck as possible in a game that already has such a diverse environment.
Magic doesn’t let you sideboard before game 1, so that’s a bad comparison off the bat.
Giving someone 21 cards to throw in for a best of 1 game with NO repercussions lets them essentially put an entire (and consistent) alternate win condition into their sideboard.
Playing against Trunks HT? Switch out 21 cards and turn into a physical beats deck.
People shouldn’t be able to cover their ass THAT well.
Not to mention the game has been dead for like 7 years. The little bit of extra luck it takes to sensei in 12 cards (which is a lot, btw) and not lose something key isn’t worth all the trouble of totally changing the rules of a dead card game for a tournament that’s for nothing but bragging rights to 40 people.
I say leave it as it is.
Sorry, but I don’t really see anybody drastically altering their deck with any Sensei other than Elder Kai.
I think what would most likely happen is you would see people run more “Sensei Deck Only” cards for their style/archetype, pack alternate Battlegrounds/Locations (ie, you don’t need to have a Winter Countryside in your main deck if you see that your opponent is playing Orange, or a City in Turmoil if your opponent is Saiyan), and some minor tech to help defend against certain archetypes.
I think with a thirteen card sideboard (assuming North Kai becomes the dominant choice), you’re not going to see as many “anti” opponent deck choices as much as you will see “pro” your deck choices.
I do, but that would be me trying to do it to prove a point if you guys actually go through with this.
I wouldn’t call the changes “minor” regardless.
It’s essentially 21 tech options (or 13 if you’re worried about a specific mastery for some reason) that can sit to the side and come in after you’ve got an idea what your opponent is playing BEFORE game 1.
I can’t imagine any deck that needs to have things in play doing too well, especially with all the options Red/Saiyan can pack into a sideboard. Or main deck – since with this change, it literally wouldn’t matter anymore…
Then there’s the part about people knowing about the tournament and NOT knowing about the change until they get there. I think that’s unlikely with how few still play, but that would blow regardless.
That’s why I personally like the idea I thought of after thinking more about SDO cards in general (the first comment I left). If you still forced SDO cards to be sensei’d as usual, then I feel you would still have that repercussion for the cards that are strong enough to warrant it. With that, if you did so happen to run Elder Kai, grats. You dont really get enough space IMO to go from control to beatdown. It would be possible to go from Drill/Ball to Beat Ball in Orange by adding maybe 4 different attacks and Energy Empowerment Drill. In styles like Black, that have a LOT of really really strong SDO cards, you would still be forcing them to take that chance.
I can actually agree with making all cards go in like Pic Sensei being a little too strong (Black IMO shoots through the roof in power). None the less, Ill still stand behind making all non SDO cards work that way.
I think the Magic comparison works. Being best of 3 or 1 game matches doesnt change my thoughts much on it. Magic’s metagame, in most of their formats, isnt nearly as diverse as DBZ. The fact is, in both situations, you know what they are playing when you are allowed to side. Depending on the deck, more removal was often added, same with tutorable tech, and even sometimes a complete deck change (Ensnaring Bridge in low creature count variants of Sligh way back in the day, turned into straight burn protecting itself from beatdown with Bridge). Depending on what you were playing, you would side in a lot vs some, and maybe just a couple cards against others.
Sideboards did often look a lot like we saw in DBZ. Beatdown decks siding a lot of removal against control, control not adding a whole lot against beatdown, since it was usually in the main, but stocking up on a little more control in the board, mainly for the control vs control matchups. Swapping out the anti beatdown for extra Aura of Silence/Seal of Cleansing, Disrupts, etc (Thinking back to Oath back in 2000-2003). While Land Grant Gobbo Sligh would have Pyroblast, Emerald Charm, Naturalize, and often Anarchy to combat control.
And honestly, there are times when looking at what they have out at the start doesnt tell you anything. I run Goku, the Puppet in FreeBall. A simple change of my mastery makes me look like Free Beats. I have no problem running North Kai for entering on the control vs control matchup against Orange, or if I have a great setup/possible winning setup against Saiyan. Hell, I dont have much of a problem running Roshi Sensei either with Krillin’s Heat Seeking Blast for auto ball steals against non-Trunks non_Roshi Sensei decks. Even up against Other Roshi Sensei’s, I cancel out their auto ball cap with their KHSB. Most decks will still bring in removal, but they may not sensei in Huh??? seeing Puppet and North Kai/Roshi.
Ill stop my ranting again and sum it up.
I am against SDO cards being Pic’ed in without Pic, but I have no problem seeing people not water down decks with stuff like 17 Smirks, Drills Are For The Weak, etc. On the flip side, a control deck could now toss Super Saiyan Effect in the sensei against other ball decks so they dont draw it.
I can see games playing out much better as useless draws will be lessened (Though control will still have to deal with those 2-3 NonCombat hands when entered on)
I don’t think you can go from Ball to Beatdown. I’ll admit I can’t, off the top of my head, think of a way to totally break it in a standard game. But there are those out there smarter/with more time than I. (I have a couple good ideas for TE where there’s less to worry about)
If you guys are okay with Broly Saiyan pulling every block out of its deck against control – go for it. But I think things would get a little less fun, since you can’t really play a loose control deck anymore, knowing your opponent can side in tons of hate without losing anything.
And the MTG comparison is bad because, unlike Z, MTG forces you to play game 1 against your bad matchup without siding in, so you’re theoretically down a game. No such thing in Z. Then there’s the fact that it’s an entirely different game/doesn’t usually have tons of broken cards that get played for free/etc.
I don’t want to argue anecdotes about when you do/don’t know what your opponent is playing. I think you can look at a personality/mastery and have a good guess more times than you wouldn’t though.
And I guess I don’t like the idea of splitting the baby and making you Piccy in SDO cards. Okay in theory, but making this more complicated than it needs to be seems bad.
Which kind of brings me to my most pressing point – you’re changing a dead card game in a tournament that has no prizing, and there’s a solid chance not everyone there is going to know about it when they need to.
I say accept the games for its flaws and move on.
I feel like allowing the Piccolo Sensei rule would open a potential issue at the start of game. what if someone senseis in tech against you, would you have an option to sensei against that? then your opponent against that ad nauseam. So, where would the “fairness” of who gets to sensei first? roll of the die?