So here it is, our first batch of virtual cards that will be legal for Gen Con 2012. As we said in the video, we didn’t want to make anything gamebreaking but we did want to make something playable out of characters that just never got out there. The first character in our minds for this has always been Tapion. So here he is, the new champion for sword decks:
Special thanks to Geoffrey Brewster for mocking these up for us. Stay tuned for two more support cards for Tapion and Sword decks!
Awesome cards =D. It makes me want to build a Sword deck! Looking forward to seeing the rest of these virtual cards.
One thing you may have overlooked is the amount of anger it looks like Tapion is able to gain yet there is nothing preventing him from winning by MPPV. That might need to be changed before the cards are made legal.
Agree with Kamiccolo, Red Sword will get to level 4 in 2 combats. Also the level 4 is pretty powerful. If you haven’t won by MPPV that’ll probably do it. I think there’s possibly shenanigans in Red Sword with that level 4. Red Sword Cleave anyone? I’d be very unhappy if I went to Gencon not knowing about this personality set and being 1-4 angered by it.
We do not accept conjecture, but we do accept decklists that can consistently demonstrate the issues you have brought up against a variety of different decks. We will of course make the appropriate changes once we receive those from you.
A chance to prove a deck is too powerful…I have to agree with Shaun and Kami on this one… I haven’t built a deck in a few years; challenge accepted.
Haha it’s Vegeta15 not Vegeta77.
I wouldn’t be interested in playing it as a red sword deck simply because I don’t think sword would be as fun to play if you’re not freestyle. It may be faster with anger but I don’t think it would be as good with sword.
The biggest issue I have with him being able to win by MPPV is it looks like you could play it completely as a sword deck strategy and end up winning by MPPV a lot of the time without using anything extra to gain anger. It gives you a strong side victory that could potentially be fast enough to take over as your main victory condition and you don’t have to do any work to achieve it. In the mean time your opponent has to worry about both your sword strategy and your anger. It looks like a really fun sword strategy, but I would be very disappointed if I was getting my sword drills set up and before I could win by beatdown I reached level 3/4 and won. I’m not sure if the anger victory would be overpowered in a normal sword deck, but IMO it definitely makes the deck less fun when the game ends without winning by the strategy you’ve been focusing on all game.
You guys will want to save the images as PNG if you plan on using those for Virtual cards, or save them as a higher jpeg. They are all staticy. =P
Not sure if images are like that b/c that’s how wordpress uploads them or what, but quality is low compared to how we usually made em.
Good job though.
Yeah, I made and saved them the same way as usual, so it must be the way they were uploaded. They’ll be the correct quality and such once the set is finished and finalized.
Oh, and just to clarify, it may have downgraded the quality in the way I originally uploaded them Josh, not when they got uploaded here. I’ll use a different method to see if that fixes the issue.
I usually just “right-clicked” then “save image”.
Geoff, I really think it’s the blog uploader and not you at all, after looking at other images on site.
If you look at all the card images for other sets that you have here already, they have same issue.
I will build a deck when I get a minute. Just FYI on his level 4.
You Red Sword Cleave, then as soon as you play a red double stike or Red Axe Heel Kick or possibly Red Shattering Leap you can probably perform the majority of your discard pile in attacks. He’s 1 scenario.
Enter combat with red sword cleave, red axe heel kick and any other 2 cards. Gohans kik and defense or something. Red Sword Cleave, 3 anger, Red Axe Heel Kick, another 3 anger – reset, get red double strike from discards, red double strike, 3 anger, red double strike, 3 anger – resets get another double strike or shattering leap or red axe heel kick or red tilted punch or trunks sword slice. Go crazy and perform about 12 huge focused attacks until they fizzle out.
This is quite obviously abusable. Not to mention all the anger the deck will have.
In freestyle it’s not as crazy, 1-4 will be viable and beats obviously isn’t as powerful as say Gohan or Trunks until the higher levels.
Off the top of my head decklist looking something like –
Tapion 1-4
North Kai Sensei
Red Mastery Trunks Saga (Doesn’t matter, this, Cell, Buu)
Red Sword Cleave x3
Red Axe Heel Kick x3
Red Double Strike x3
Red Shattering Leap x3
Red Energy Blast x3
Red Lightning Slash x3
Red Blocking Hand x3
Red Tilted Punch x3
Red Overbearing Attack x3
Red Energy Block or Goku’s Flight or something x3
Trunks Sword Slice x3
Gohan’s Sword Thrust x3
Gohan’s Sword Sweep x3
Gohan’s Focused Sword thing x3
Gohan’s Swordplay Drill x3
Trunks Finds the Answer
Fartherly Advice
Earth Dragon Ball 4
Earth Dragon Ball 5
Gohan’s Kick x3
TESx3
NEA
FFB
TIAWT
VPS
NPR
PLC x3
World Tournament x3
Haven’t fleshed out the whole deck, but other red cards, maybe Red Mouth Shot to tutor swordplay drills.
Remember, Sword Cleave only impacts cards in your hand, not in your discard pile. You can only get cards that have Sword PRINTED on them with the Level 4 power.
We’re keeping an eye on the level 4, since Trunks Sword Slice alone with that power is pretty combo-riffic, so that may get changed after we test it out and get some deck lists. The good news is, there is only a handful of ways to jump to level 4 without Goku’s Farewell.
I’m pretty sure that any red deck using that combo can be viable. Not to go all crazy into comparisons, but there are ways to avert the threat of this deck. Anyone packing a Lvl 5 (true anger deck), Piccolo the Trained, Stall-Balls, etc. Wasn’t there another deck listed on the articles side a few weeks ago that offered potential ways for turn 2 wins? I mean seriously, any well built deck has that potential…until it plays another well built deck being used by a good player, and throwing in the always random factor of card draws. I think everyone should wait and see what else is going to be offered with this virtual set before going all up and arms about it.
Hey guys. Thought I would bring my input on the cards, but there is some changes that I hope you guys will consider:
Level 1 – I would get rid of the “When you advance…” part for this level. Just for the simple fact that with the constant effect of not losing your swordplay drills can make him broken.
Level 2 – I like this one. The only thing I would change is the placing of a non-combat sword/swordplay to being limited to once per combat. I would say to make use of other cards like Brothers in Training or Trunks Guardian drill to combo it off.
Level 3 – This is an awesome card, minus the unstoppable first sword attack. It’s a little over powering especially with how strong he is. It can cause some serious unfair damage. It almost makes that card a game changer, especially for a “Free” card. Maybe make it a focused attack.
Level 4 – Broken (as it stands). With the constant ability to raise your anger, you could easily hit 5 anger at least twice maybe even up to four times if the right cards are down at that point in the game. I would take away the effect to gain anger with this power completely.
Overall – I give it a 6 as it is. It’s kind of a cheap way to win. Whether it’s MPPV or by beatdown, the constant ability to keep your swordplay drills AND these bonus effects make him a juggernaut. And, if he is not an actual card that ANYONE can use, it makes playing the game not fun anymore.
I like this personality, and what you guys did, but it just needs tweeks.
Not trying to tear you guys down, just constructive criticism.
I actually LIKE that you can make a Red Sword Deck with him and that it gives a use for Red Sword Cleave. I just think it’s far too powerful as it is at the moment. The Anger he gets from his own powers are the problem.
Also, there are decks that beat it. That’s for sure. However that doesn’t mean it’s right. Players going to Gencon aren’t going to like being 1-4 angered and they’re not long to like 15 attack combos like what Sword Cleave causes off 2 cards.
As far as the anger is concerned, Tapion isn’t that much of an angry guy in the movie from my recollection so it doesn’t suit his flavor either.
I’m just trying to give honst feedback. Not shooting down what you’re doing. I love this site and I love virtual cards and i’m not even going to Gencon, but i’m just adding my opinion. I definately think you guys should stream a game with a Red Tapion deck, see how fast it levels and see what happens at level 4.
All we ask is that you give us actual, playtested feedback and decklists. Being an armchair general and delivering conjecture does absolutely nothing in regards to making the game better or demonstrating any point you are trying to make. You may find that after playtesting that we are completely wrong… or you are. Fantasy scenarios do neither.
You guys should be playtesting them when you make them. As I said, when I get time i’ll try it.
Who said we weren’t? We just acknowledge that we are not infallible.
You will get my full report on Wednesday, April 18th. A weekend of play testing should do the trick. I am going to incorporate Taipion in 3 ways that I think people would use him:
1. Red Beatdown with the CS Red Style
2. Red Anger/Beatdown with the TS Red style
3. Freestyle with the MBS Freestyle
1 and 2 will be the same deck with different masteries and maybe a slight tweek.
By the way, we are using the latest Errata from 2004 right?
I wasn’t trying to be a jerk last night when I posted, I was kind of groggy. I am just thinking a combination of Vegeta’s Quickness Drill, Red Knee Pick/Red Coordination Drills, TSP1, TSP3, Red Sword Cleave and Red Axe Heel Kick will make the Lv.4 broken.
I know it is a fantasy Scenario up above, yet it is an extremely likely one. I am just seeing an almost infinite loop at level 4 with a combination of those cards.
Like I said, I will playtest this weekend and let you see what I see. I don’t have a way to record it, other than by my words.
It’s all good, we just need actual decklists and data. It’s real easy to sit back and give your input, but it’s another matter when it comes to actually proving it.
We’re trying to create something for the community in our free time, and just like how most of you have posted that you’ll try it out and playtest “when you have time”, keep in mind that this is not our full-time job either and we are in the exact same boat as you when it comes to making time. We playtest sure, but that doesn’t mean we can’t be wrong.
What rules are we using?
I have been using the very last errata from 2004.
Let me know, because it may completely change my playtesting…
My input on this personality is that same as anything else. I agree with Josh that it just needs play tested. Honestly on paper anything can look broken. Or on the other hand, can look really bad but end up amazing in the end. I plan on play testing him before I pass judgement.
I was never really a sword deck player, but after putting together some decklists, I can really see how Trunks and Gohan still have many, many advantages (primarily card advantage, but others) over Tapion. There is one serious exploit I have found that I will continue to playtest for consistency…but beyond that, kudos for creating a really captivating personality stack!
The primary thing with Tapion is how quickly he can gain anger. A 1-4 MPPV with Tapion consistently is definitely doable. For Beats, Gohan or Trunks obviously are better. However, those decks don’t have the side victory of MPPV that Tapion does. You can’t say that conjecture does nothing. A good amount (not all) of cards can be broken simply by looking at them and understanding the game.
It’s not like the DBZCCG has been around for 12 years or anything 😉 The only thing I would add for Tapion is that he cannot win by MPPV. I see nothing else wrong, even if there are plentiful combos available.
I have seen it time and again with previews from all sorts of games, people overreact with conjecture, declare a card “broken” before seeing it in action, and demand changes based on their own assumptions. Not to mention this is literally the very first preview we’ve seen from this set, who knows what else might be in it?
What’s more, these overreactions are consistently wrong. With only one counter-example that I can think of (I’m looking at you Ban and Ho), supposedly “overpowered” previews are never top tier decks, and in no case have I ever seen one win an event immediately after it’s release.
Do I think Tapion needs changed? Absolutely. But my thoughts are not evidence. I will continue to think that, but I do agree that no changes should be made until an overpowered Tapion deck is actually demonstrated.
Not one Unlocked Potential combo mentioned? Forshame.
Fresko already sent in a detailed report of the inf combo with unlocked potential.
I hope it was thoroughly playtested and has accompanying decklists and annotated notes detailing why it’s overpowered. Otherwise, how would we know?
Thanks, OHG.
We do our best with the time and resources that we have available to us.
I don’t think anybody was attacking you and saying it was terrible. But after building the deck and testing it for consistency, Fresko found one way to go intimate and another to throw 22 attacks turn two.
Nobody is blaming anyone. There isn’t exactly a Playtesting team to catch this stuff. It’s just unfortunate. I was looking forward to the virtual cards being there to make unviable decks a bit more playable. Instead, it’s currently a new personality entirely that is abusable.
No one was implying such an attack. I just keep pointing to what we said earlier: “We are open to changes if it is broken, but you need more than just hypotheticals and conjecture.” Some people just don’t seem to get that that is the way things work.
We’ve received two external decklists so far. That’s actually something we can use and we appreciate those who took the time to make those for us, along with providing some playtesting results and feedback based of off that. Those people will have an actual affect on the virtual cards and will be acknowledged publicly.
I just went the direction most people thought at first glance, Red Sword Cleave. If you get a Red Sword Cleave and an Unlocked Potential, you are pretty much set to hit level 4 that turn. Just run searchers to get both. Hero’s Lucky Break, Krillin’s Concentration, Trunks Finds the Answer (For Trunks Sword Slice, which can get Sword Cleave), Releasing the Sword, Fatherly, etc.
Red TS Mastery helps you get past level 2. If you Unlock level 4, then you get the Sword Cleave back when you go from 2-3 and 3-4.
With the level 4, Trunks Sword Slice gains 3 anger and gets a sword card. Whatever card you get will gain you 2 more, hitting 5, and getting Sword Slice back. Rinse and repeat with getting Red Sword Cleaves, and Trunks Sword Position’s 3 and 4 (3 can put either two back to be searched out additional times).
Deceptive Moves lets you go infinite. You can now shuffle back Red Sword Cleave on use, to be searched out with Trunks Sword Slice. While on the CRD on this site, Deceptive Moves was errated on 2/11/04, which is the first GT CRD, so it couldnt be used with Rush.
What I sent Josh was a lot more detailed, this is just an overview for whoever wants to read it. Most of it was already known by those who check this site, as the level 4 screams Unlocked Potential and Red Sword Cleave. Not terribly hard to do as most decks in Z run a LOT less blocks than in Expanded as the attacks dont hit as hard, and with the attacks being focused, it makes it even easier to get the attacks through.
I love the idea of virtual cards, but this obviously needs to be toned down. I acknowledge this is their free time stuff, which is why they have open arms to people testing the stuff, and giving feedback. I like that as it gives the players a voice. Id love to see these fan favs, and major series characters, who were all previously bad, be between tier one and two. Let the real decks still be the major players, but the virtual decks slightly behind, yet still viable.