After playing some more games and reviewing all the information and data provided to us to by community we have decided to make some changes to Baba. The amount of allies she can play each turn has been reduced and her power only triggers at the start of your turn. Bandages power was also changed to weaken her match up against drill based decks. Oh Hoi Hoi Hoi Poi has also been changed so that it no longer puts an ally into play. I would like to thank everybody who provided feedback on Baba. With your guys help I know we can continue to make sure the game stays fun and balanced.
I have placed a couple of cards on the red alert list. These are cards that could possibly receive changes in the future if they prove to be over powered or disruptive to the game. I have listed what change they might receive if any.
Krillin’s Concentration (Limit one per deck)
Piccolo and Heroes Gather (Limit one per deck)
Vegeta, Settled Down (not sure yet)
Long Journey (Remove from the game)
Hercule’s Amazing Techniques (Unless your main personality is Hercule, Limit one per deck.)
Till next time BroZ
In my opinion the game just becomes more lame and restricted as far as deck variety /construction. those 4 cards you put on the chopping block are not over powered, don’t like non-combats put cards to get rid of them etc. I’m not even a Vegeta deck fan, but wanting to change that level 2 has never crossed my mind. I’m all for changing/making your virtual cards better but leave what little original texts and powers are left in the original DBZ game.
Sincerely, The DBZ champion that was too young to attend all the big DBZ tournaments back in the day and now is all grown up.
P.S. I’m going to the next Gencon and winning:-D (my first big tournament*-*)
Good luck, but I’m thinking there may be a few people with the same idea 😉
this made me laugh so much at the end mikhail
Im fine with any of those changes since the game was fine with the Kcon and PAHG changes anyways. Only deck that really wanted to run more than 1 of them was Namekian Bling anyways, this just keeps possibly Yaj abuse and limites tutors. Long Journey has always needed that change. Ive seen quite a few games lost on turn 1 due to a Long Journey+Dende 3.
You could just use the old Vegeta errata, though something new might be better as it just wasnt worth it. Maybe they remove the top card of their deck each time they use a Combat card? Scares the hell out of speedball decks, but more than 1 could see an overuse of him to beat ball decks (Though beatdown was def much moer prevalent at the last tournament).
There things that are over powered in my opinion that should be restricted before those four cards.
What other things are you referring to? These are the four cards that the most people have asked me about possibly changing.
Saiyan Gut Kick should be a head of those cards on the restriction candidates list. And possibly Red Axe Heel Kick.
If you’re going to put those on a restriction candidate list, you need to put Black Body Destruction on it too. Basically the same effect, but in reverse.
I would agree actually and I was going to mention it in the same line, but didn’t want to seem like I was trying restrict all of these three style’s power cards. In order of severity, I’d put Saiyan Gut Kick first, followed by Axe Heel and then Body Destruction. But out of the three, Gut kick is the most easily over powered it can get card drawing balls that will in a very slim speed beats deck will likely draw into another Gut Kick. Or Gut Kick, Brace/Truce card chains.
I’d rank Red Axe Heel Kick higher, if only because in Red CS you can pull out a Shattering Leap or other double attack, and get essentially the same throughput (if not higher, since you won’t be pulling a block, NC, or DB) as Gut Kick would have. Quality over quantity, in this case.
I kind of agree that Gut Kick should be looked at. Maybe not restricted, I liked the TT errata that floated around “You cannot play another Saiyan Gut Kick this turn”. Or maybe restricted I’m not sure. But Gut Kick to me is like the icing on a cake made of gold. Saiyan has so many power cards and just doesn’t need to have attacks that draw them 2-3 cards. Gut Kick takes Saiyan Speed Beats from ‘amazing’ to ‘you better have a physical block first turn’.
As far as the other two mentioned, Back Body and Axe Heal Kick, I don’t see issues with these. Sure they’re powerful, but I think Saiyan’s problem with Gut Kick more comes from what else is in the style already. Energy Bullet, Power Beam, Beef, Truce. They just have a ton of power lock down cards that I feel when put together mesh so well that overwhelming the opponent is a no brainier.
Also, it is sick and wrong that you can Truce on your turn, You’re Invited the opponent, and enter next turn with a 12 to 15 card hand. Sick. And. Wrong.
I fully agree here and you echo my thoughts exactly. Like I said, I was only bring red and black into the discussion out of fairness. The difference with Red and Axe Heel is that a Staredown, Confrontation, Black CS, etc etc will totally ruin it’s chain of attack and leave it dead in the water. Against Saiyan, you can do the same and they still have 5-6 other power cards in their hand left to destroy with.
Saiyan Brace/Truce is more of a nuisance than gut kick. Making gut kick once per combat is enough to keep it in check if thats the problem. Ppl just need to be smart enough to hold their block against saiyan and if you didnt have a block your in trouble anyway. BBD and RAHK are better since they are secondarys effects. BBD is basically a 2 card swing in ur adv since most avg hands are 4, so ur blocking 1 of their attacks while discarding their hand down to 2 cards. Axe kick is a +6 physical, raises anger, and lets you get any one broke ass red attack from dcp.
Anyway back to Brace, i think being able to block any attack, raise your anger 1, plus being able to search out the most powerful saiyan card is dumb then basically getting to immediately play it. I think thats more of a problem than gut kick.
Man. Whoever designed those Saiyan cards in Fusion and Kid Buu seems like he was compensating for something… :p
Chippy
I can say the 3 of the 4 need changing. Like fresko said most decks, other than Namekian Pew Pew, run 1 or 2 of the combat searchers. Long Journey should be RFG already. The Vegeta lvl 2, come on its Vegeta, let him have something good on a personality level.
I don’t fully understand all the hate about Vegeta, Settled Down. I understand a little, he’s really good at shutting down Combat cards. But without GT’s leveling/Saiyan Supreme Mastery, he’s not getting to start at level 2 for free. Furthermore, there are cards that aren’t pure Combat cards that can knock him off his level 2 or prevent it from happening.
*shurgs* Well, you guys do play more than me, as I’m spending my free time training and getting a new architecture done. So maybe it’s harder to handle than I realize.
Chippy
Oh, BTW, good listening to your community about your new cards. Never got to see Baba’s true power, but a good decision by the team. Keep up the good work!
Chippy
If Vegeta changes it would probably be something like “Stop the effects of the first combat card your opponent plays” or something to that effect.
That makes him feel like he’d be a weaker version of Android 17 level 1.
I’d say a better version of 17 as 17 is required to run a bunch of his his awful named cards. Smirks is the best one and if you’ve used it, it’s already removed from game.
I’m curious to see what games or decks or match ups that would prompt a complain about Vegeta, Settled Down. He can still have his power shut off with all the things that do so in this game or leveled up with Straining Jump Kick Move or leveled down with Vegeta Scans the City. And he only stops one type of card. I’d venture to say the Bojack ally that shuts of a card type if successful is more power than Vegeta, Settled Down.
Bujin is an ally (can be discarded), takes up an attack phase (they can just enter on you and use anything they want), the attack must hit, they have to be <5 power stages, AND you actually have to predict and name the right type. This happened to me against Dave in our Top 8 match where he hit Bujin and named energy attacks (rightfully so), but I had a hand of all physicals.
Sure, it's super powerful, but there's no comparison to an MP that kills an entire type always. Add in that fact that his own power removes ~80% of the ways you can get him off that level.
Playing a lot with my deck and in the tournament, changes for Vegeta should be on the table. It was slightly unfair that 1 Aura Clash caused me to /laugh at all ball decks.
I think it's a very reasonable errata to make it only the first combat card played. I hated the 'discard top 4' because it allowed ball to self mill; completely counter intuitive. And since most decks that play combat cards will only play 1-2 per combat anyway, it'll still be very powerful.
The first combat card is negated AND they remove top 2 cards of their LD 😉
Just as Bujin is an ally and can be discarded, so can Vegeta be leveled up or down or his power shut off completely. And if Bujin has hit his attack, chances are against a well built Bojack deck you won’t be above 5 stages any way. I’m not proposing changes to Bojack and his allies at this time but in no way do I see Vegeta, a very rarely used MP with very few playable levels in need of update at this time and I see no evidence of it personally.
” Add in that fact that his own power removes ~80% of the ways you can get him off that level.”
Yeah, but that’s not 100%. You got cards like Straining Jump Kick and others that are not pure Combats that can move him off the level, no? If Aura Clash is your only level gainer, why not Black Scout or COGD Aura Clash? Or have a Winter Countryside to block the Aura Clash? Why couldn’t a deck change itself to handle a “game-wrecking” card, like decks have done in the past when crazy cards like “Huh???” are introduced? *shrugs*
Fine, I see what y’all want. Let’s just un-errata PTT and be done with it! 😛
Yea, I get that. I don’t know, I’m still on the fence about this.
While it makes sense to not change anything that’s not a problem, I think usability and power are mutually exclusive in this case.
I can’t disagree with statements made against changing him. He’s not toxic to the environment; he’s only used in one deck that most people (Not me!) think is a joke anyway. He’s just not used, but I think the fact that arguments mounted against changing him revolve around everything else but the actual card and power should say something.
And this is my point. This card power isn’t balanced and is too powerful, but is being held back from ‘game-wrecking’ status because of a bunch of other reasons that have nothing to do with the card itself. If you threw this power on a Goku or Gohan personality, you would see fireworks.
Ultimately it probably won’t affect that much if he’s errata’d or not. But retro’s erratas and virtual cards are changing and shifting the game slowly. And if anything ever happened to make Vegeta a more desirable personality (has anyone tried that virtual L1?) or indirectly change how viable freestyle is, I feel this card power could run a muck.
Oops. I forgot to put Hercule’s Amazing Techniques on the Red Alert list.
That’s another good idea. Keeps people (Like myself) from abusing the Retro Sensei Deck rule.
Soon there’s going to be no more good combo’s with all these errata’s~_~’ remove this, remove that, limit this, limit that, forget this card was ever made, that’s too good against my deck…there’s numerous cards in the DBZCCG to counter a deck type. All these cards i’ve read you guys talk about are easily solved with spheres, pure defenses, turmoils/non-combat removers specific to each style, playing strategic and not neglecting good basic blocks for any deck.
p.s. Trunks is the best~~seriously just deal with it
“All these errara’s”?
What’s been errata’d, exactly? Outside of the cards they themselves put into the game? Only one that comes to mind is the SWK ban.
Also, your comments make it beyond obvious you’ve never played at a national level.
I was making a future reference since that’s whats going to happen in due time Sayjin. Your correct I haven’t played on a national level since I never had money when I was in middle school to attend such events as I stated before in my first comment. Though I did attend local tournaments at Dragon’s Den Yonkers Cross County, NY and won multiple times against LAMES like you that think they’re good because they’ve played nationally. There’s a lot of great unknown people in there respective fields wether it’s music, gaming, sports etc. I’m not complaining, i’ll rock with what ever changes you people want to make, when I beat you…just deal with it. NUFF SAID
yeah this is really annoying I have never had a problem taking down opponents and you guys keep changing the simplest things that are easily countered you guys need to stop because you are ruining how the game was supposed to be played and its ridiculous in my opinion nothing else really needs to be changed and if you do change some things don’t do it a month or 2 before gencon because that will piss people off esp if their deck has that combo it happened last year and a good deck had loose ends because of it. Those are my thoughts about it and trunks… get ready
What else was changed? SWK, and….? And what “easily counterable” things, exactly?
And just for good measure, here’s some more periods, as I seen you lost a lot of them.
……
As I am sure you found them, because you are on one right now.
1) Never played in New York.
2) I’ve won a regional, top cutted every event I went to, and got at least top 16 in Nationals, Worlds, and GKI. I worked at Score afterward. I have credentials that you don’t from your little local event.
3) I played with a focus on winning back when the game mattered. I now play with a focus on fun. That’s what most do at GenCon now.
4) Don’t complain about things that haven’t happened as if they’ve happened many times over already.
5) Get over yourself. “nuff said”
No idea why these posts decide not to post on a tree, but whatever. Anyway, Anthony M., nice comeback. Can’t support your own argument, so you try to smack talk? Use some proper grammar, or even just a semblance of such, and you won’t look like a tool. Now, care to establish and support your argument like a rational human being, or do you intend to just rage like a troll?
Nothing has changed at this time. If anything does it would be done well before Gencon.
I can see why ppl dont like some of saiyans cards, but besides broly are we having a real issue with saiyan? Gut kick in most other saiyan decks isnt as bad since most mps cant go from lv 1 to 3 in one turn. Bad enuff broly can do that but then he has 3 mil base and a powerful attack that can be used twice and adds +2 life to each attack. Besides broly saiyan i dont see much of a problem, so if any change was made id either like to see it done to his lv 3 and/or just make saiyan truce into blue leaving
Or his level 1, so he can’t jump as fast from the get-go.
DBZ trash talk? This shit just got real!
“No…I’m going to win the tournament noob! Black Dende Mill FTW!”
Didier wins the post of week.
+1
Well first of all, if I was “smack talking” then I would have said something about your lack of ability to play the game. Second of all, there have been many unnecessary changes made to the game, if you can’t see how silly they are then you obviously don’t have much of a passion for the game, as you say you used to. You say that you won a regional, and you placed in the top 16 for other events. Congratulations I was in elementary/middle school those years and I played with my brothers, I probably still could have beat you. That was smack talk. I honestly could care less about this silly forum, or if you even respond, I’ve already made my point so you can have a nice day.
Yeah, because calling someone a “LAME” in the context of card games isn’t talking about their ability to play a game. Oh wait… You still didn’t point out any changes, just used the very weak “Well, if you don’t know, I’m not going to tell you!” excuse.
Also, congratulations, you were in middle school. I was in high school. There were plenty of others who played in big tournaments in grade school still. Point? Oh, it’s just an excuse to be able to inflate your own ego without any substantial data to back it up. Forgot this was the internet for a minute, should’ve been expecting that. So if your point was to make baseless claims and then run away, congratulations, you succeeded as you say you did.
I wasn’t the one that called people “LAME”. I stated in one of the other comments how I thought some of the errata’d cards were unnecessary, and brought up easy counters for them. One of the silly changes they made were about focused attacks, originally focused attacks could not be stopped by floating effects. Now they can because someone complained it was a little bit too overpowered. They have changed so many things and you are trying to tell me that they haven’t, there are a lot of changes in the CRD. Zero is the amount of fucks I give about any tournaments, as a 10 year old I wasn’t focused on entering any dbz tournaments, I was focusing on school having fun and mainly being a kid. The only thing you have been to this forum is a “Grammar Nazi” you need to do everyone a favor, take a step back, and literally fuck yourself. You are probably an overweight troll with no friends who sits on his computer all day commenting on dozens of forums and videos and terrorize people, trying to make yourself feel a little better about yourself because you have no social life. Cool sounds like a fun life, so you continue to do that while I get some sleep, how about that. Comes tournament time if you are going to be there, we will see who the better player is.
My bad on the “lames” thing. Got you confused with Spiffy. As for the changes (note: I’ll have to check the CRD when I get home to confirm them):
1) I don’t recall any change to focused attacks being stoppable by floating effects. Pretty sure it’s the same it always was, wherein any “Stop all X attack” floating effect would stop a focused X attack. It was stuff like Time that couldn’t stop it, because the floating effect was an omni block, which can’t stop focused attacks.
2) I’m only talking about changes RetroDBZ has made. Any complaints you have about changes beyond those can be addressed to Score, which no longer exists.
3) I’ve only been a “grammar nazi” to people who write ludicrous claims in a manner befitting an uneducated twat on crack. You want people to take time to read what you write? Take time to write it with at least a semblance of being done right. You seem to like to talk a lot of shit for someone who is literally nobody. If you think I’m “terrorizing” you, then that’s just sad for you. “Oh no mommy, this mean man told me to use proper grammar after I went on a rant about how I focused on school work instead of playing games!”
Cry more? You still haven’t substantiated your initial claims. You posted one example, after claiming many, and that one I’m pretty sure isn’t even on the onus of Retro. Educate yourself more before you try to make stupid statements.
Black Body Destruction should get the Black Scout Maneuver treatment!
Pfft why even do that when ppl could just be running Mbs Gohan or run gokus quickness drill
I second this! The card’s so good, everybody should be playing with it! :p
Chippy
Thank you for bringing that up that is one of my points. Everybody should rock black scouts, it’s a good counter for any powerful cards such as Saiyan gut kick, saiyan power beam, saiyan strength blast or what ever card that counters the kind of deck you have or is very powerful, pure defenses are also very useful in almost any given situation.
Not sure if serious.
I wasn’t in particular, but if people find merit in the idea… We welcome all suggestions to the table.
I’m glad that we are all still talking about this game 10+ years on, but even with my feelings on Gut Kick, I’m not sure we should really be adding to the errata anymore. It’s already a novel. At least with Virtual Cards, the images can just be edited.
As far as Saiyan Gut Kick goes, maybe I’ve been tainted by Epic Battles… but why not just save your block for it? It is a super beefy effect, but it is also If Successful.
Chippy, I would say that’s an over simplification of the situation. If that is the case, then why is Backlash banned? I’ve seen more games won after hitting a Gut Kick due to EDB3 and god forbid ANOTHER Gut Kick for EDB5.
I believe Backlash was banned due to it being able to randomly win you games. Score never had an issue w/ the “Combat Backlash” decks like the one Valdez ran that specifically tried to combo it into an unblockable state. But people didn’t like going up against, say, Stasis and then out of the blue this one card gets played that, if they don’t stop, they lose.
That can’t happen w/ Gut Kick. If you were running “Saiyan Stasis” (possible?) and then randomly Gut Kicked and they didn’t block, are you going to be drawing up a hand full of attacks to follow up? Probably not. Your deck would need to be packed w/ good attacks, which is the opposite of Stasis.
I do see your point about EDB5 -> possible EDB3 if you draw into a 2nd Gut Kick in the same Combat. De-friggin-licious. If nothing is done about it, show how good it is at GenCon. Would love to see how this would compare to other super fast beatdown decks, like DBM’s ally deck he won w/ last year. Or any other decks that try to win within the first 1-3 turns.
Chippy
Why is the OCG site still malwared?
Don’t worry Chippy, your wish will be granted.
And I’ve posted on OCG to ask if they are gonna try to resolve the continuing Malware issue but I don’t recall seeing a response. Sucks though. Hopefully people who don’t want to go there now will come here and the Midwest Series Facebook group as an alternative.
Since I can’t edit, I wanted to clarify the first part of my statement. I’m sure I can think of people who will end up playing a proper Saiyan speed beats this year. I won’t be because I don’t particularly care for the style. I normally play jank decks and try to do my best with them. Which is why I spent most of the 02/03 tournament season showing up to top cut at Regionals/Nationals/Worlds with my jank Red Master Roshi deck.
dave and i tested his deck vs my saiyan broly, he loses from mppv by 1st or 2nd turn
I would like to see a deck list for Baba, post card changes with some input. I’m the first to say I’m no Nationals champion, I play for fun and some of these mass combos blow me away, so I’m fixing my deck to better her and make my allies come faster.
Babba will need to put on a sexy outfit to get those allies to “come faster” huehuehuehuehue
Your no longer allowed to speak.
Yeah, can’t tell which part of that was worse. Misspelling Baba, the horrible pre-teen sex joke, or “huehue”.
pahg, kc, hat should all be limit 1…i agree to this…i dont see long journey being an issue and i have ALWAYS played drill decks…sure, first turn long journey sucks…and first turn long journey + dende ball 3 could be the game…key word ‘could’ (and for argument’s sake probably is…)…but depending on the drill based deck, how often do we see first turn long journey? and how statistically insignificant is it to see first turn lj + ddb3? (assuming an 85 card deck)…now even if we’re talking about a 50 card speedball deck…in z-only without the look @ top 6 rule its hard to pull first turn lj…thats the likelihood of what say 3 in 45ish? thats 1 in 15? okay so its do-able…but then how many speedball decks run dende to combo with ddb3? most are earth or namek dragon balls…idk thats always been around in z, then in expanded, and its never really been a problem to need an errata before…maybe people just play drill and/or db tech? i dunno maybe thats asking too much seeing as how a straight forward ‘you know exactly whats coming’ buu 1-5 anger deck gets 3rd…and for vegeta…yes he’s powerful…he may be stupid powerful…but guess how many vegeta decks were in the last 2 gencon’s? to my knowledge 1…he did well because people underestimated the deck and forgot about his lv.2 having no errata in z…but guess what…there’s only 1 deck that he’s playable in and obviously the cat is out of the bag now so people should know about what the deck can do as evidenced by the video on this site…that lv.2 is kinda the only thing making vegeta playable…with no double power rule the puppet is out…and the super saiyan is decent for a turn or 2 until you can get to lv.2…and even then some would argue it’s better to get to lv.3 than sit on 2 (lv.3 is better against beatdown decks which were very prevelant last year)…i dunno…yeah i think it’s wicked powerful but don’t take away the only thing vegeta has going for him…if you nuke his personality then you make him unplayable bc trunks free sword is obv the better choice with or without that new virtual card…
I have a crazy idea!
Instead of banning/restricting cards why can’t you guys just power up other decks so they become just as “broken”
Magic the gathering does thsi all the time. You restrict/bann the cards that are impacting the environment temporarily, then as power creep happends which each new set improves other decks, then you uban/unrestrict those cards.
Instead of restricting and hurting other powerful decks, you guys should focus on weaker decks that aren’t used and put them on that level.
That’s all fine and good if you’re releasing large amounts of cards, like Score did with its 100-300 card sets every 3-4 months. Retro is doing under 50 a year. That’s, at minimum, 1/6th the number of cards. And people already don’t like if they make really powerful cards, as it “taints” the game or some such. So it’s not really an option for this game.
Thats enough cards to change things. Especially when 80 percent of those 300 cards sets were useless anyway. In magic too 90 percent of cards that are released in each set will not be used for anything other than type 2. When a 300 set came out you may only see 1-3 cards that would be considered to put in your deck.
50 cards are enough if they are focused on improving certain decks. Thats probably the amount of good cards that would be released anyway in a year for dbz. Probably half a year.
If retro focuses and making these cards improve decks that have been forgotten i think its doable. Half these tier 2 or 3 decks aren’t good because they are missing a few key cards . Its not like they are running on empty.
Lastly i think those who complain should just suck it. Why should the same tier 1 decks that have been dominating for the past ten years go unopposed? I don’t think retro should ban these decks because it alienates the players who brought those cards. Instead they should make alternative decks that can challenge those decks. Having more tier 1 broken decks to go against other broken decks leads to a more balanced environment. In my opinion.
For reference, they aren’t banning top decks (SWK not withstanding, since she was a game breaker). All of these changes proposed at the top are, I believe, changes that had been made during GT that had their changes removed for the “RetroZ” format.
While Quickkill will probably be disagreed with by the masses, I actually do not think that’s a wrong statement. As I’ve told people in discussions recently, “If everything is good, then nothing is bad”. The problem with this game has always been the Errata. Score released one monster, and killed it. Then they released another monster. Aaaaand killed it. And each time, the new monster dominated because there was no other competition. We see this in nature. If there are no predators, then one species will over populate. If SWK, Roshi, 18, Tapkar PTT and original Baba all existed at once, wouldn’t there be a system of checks and balances here? Instead, this game has always had one or two over powered things at a time and everything else was sucky. Wash, rinse, repeat.
@quickkill & Carasio, I like the way you think. Cheers to that.
I don’t think my statement is all that radical. Magic the gathering does this all the time.
In the format Legacy, every deck is overpowered. When a deck is so broken and it takes over the top spots then wizards would deal with that deck. However, power creep should happen. It should be natural. Thats why wizards restricts cards in legacy because those decks are no longer as strong because there are stronger decks now.
While i was playing before gt, all i can remember is there was massive power creep for namekian and dragon ball (roshi) Those two decks were all the rage from what i remember. At the very last sets swk took over.
Also whatever happened to the new sensei deck rule? Can’t we now have 2 cell’s presence in sideboard and stunned? Can’t you run 3x straining jump kick move? Isn’t the whole point on having an open sensei deck to evolve it based on the metagame?
Since I can’t respond in the tree with Sayjin above, I’ll have to do it here.
Sayjin said “For reference, they aren’t banning top decks (SWK not withstanding, since she was a game breaker). All of these changes proposed at the top are, I believe, changes that had been made during GT that had their changes removed for the “RetroZ” format.”
I actually would swear I remember Krillin’s Concentration and Piccolo and Heroes Gather being restricted prior to Worlds 2003. I could be wrong though. I was surprised when I got back into the game and realized they weren’t (NOTE: I’m not saying I want them to be restricted).
It’s possible. I don’t recall when they were restricted, exactly, just that they were at one time.
They were restricted, when gt first started. I remember since i left the game then. I use to run 2x krillin’s concentration in my deck. I remember because most decks that i saw would run 1x krillin’s and 1x fatherly. Since i didn’t have the money for FA because it was like 80 dollars at the time, i decided just to run another Krillin’s concentration.
Also when pure defense first came out no one ran it. Only roshi did. Maybe it has something to do with you drawing only 3 cards and not guaranteed a block?
Also the only deck that ran piccolo’s and heroes gather was PTT. As of right now without PTT i see no reason to restrict piccolo’s and heroes gather. Change back PTT to what it use to be and see if it still gets top spot.
they were errata’d with the whole lump sum kid buu saga CRD update with baby saga in expanded…dustin used 3x pahg and 2x kc in his piccolo namekian deck to get ultimate champion
sorry quickkill…didnt read your post just went on a string after eddie c…also…pahg could be abused in vegeta freestyle also along with kc…kc is 1 for 1…pahg is 2 for 2…but you could easily lurking to get 2 extra cards in your hand (1 for 3 shift)…then use power to shuffle in lurking…pahg away 2 of those vegeta cards for lurking and battle pausing…battle pausing the 2 you just discarded and lurking a 2nd time…you get the picture…you could also use it with goku’s db quest and dende 3…its combo-licious….
Playtested Baba with the changes last night and she is slowed down. Her damage output has been cut in half.
So then, maybe turn the discussion around in another direction? For those that don’t want to see these cards errata’d (outside of Baba) and would instead want to make other things beefier, what do you suggest? Are there cards that have been errata’d, restricted, or banned that you don’t think need to be that way anymore? I kinda liked how Kunk was handling it over at the OCG, and very interested in hearing those thoughts.
Chippy
Why oh why is Burning Rage, Blazing Anger, and Enraged still restricted??? Orange Rapid Attack and Red Piccolo Multiforms can go 1-5 in a turn but we still have these junky Saiyan Saga non-combats restricted still?
I would say just getting the current game to a respectable state (not too overrun by a single deck or style) and then use new virtual cards to support less viable decks and styles. The ground work is already there for many directions, since Score continually changed what styles were good at each set. Minor virtual card support for Red Energy Beats, Blue Phy/Energy Beats, etc could make the environment extremely diverse.
The big challenge would be doing it without supporting any of the current strong decks.
completely agree with carasio Those are two cards that should be unrestricted because they are no longer broken in this format.
.Didier Greenleaf basically said what i been trying to say haha.
I think retro has been doing this. But mostly they are introducing new personalities into the mix instead of helping older deck styles/personalities. I definitly don’ think cell needed another amazing level 1 especially frieza who still is has that mediocre level 1.
off the top of my head some older deck styles i would like to see come back are.
Krillin energy beatdown ( i believe he was using orange)
zarbon energy beatdown/physical ( i guess he can go either way)
android 19 energy beatdown
majin pui pui ( i saw him mostly in red energy beats)
Tien orange physical beatdown. He used the world games orange style mastery
Cooler ( i think he needs more direction, His levels are all over the place but cooler’s suprise attack is a great start for a more competitive personality).
vinegar energy beatdown orange
guldo black physical beatdown
These are just my ideas of decks i seen play back in the olden days of dbz.
I think roshi backlash needs to come back, where backlash has been changed to you search your deck for any 1 card and put it into your hand. I believe that was chippy’s own errata if he had to do it over again.
Especialy with orange thing. Since mbs orange style mastery came out every other deck style that was not control became obsolete. That should be fixed by making cards that only support 1 mastery or personality.
Great start with dabura. But there seriously needs to be better majin cards. I personally think if people look at the new virtual cards and decide there are better options/whats the point in playing this when it will lose, its not good enough.
These are just my ideas. I don’t think this can be fixed within a year. But it would be nice if it was slowly fixed. I think this will give the format a lot of variety.
I would like Backlash to be available but I don’t like the idea of changing the text. I’m against changing the text of any card, I feel restricting is easier for new players to remember and make sense of. Virtual cards are different. However at MOST, I could see justification on making Backlash limit one or even remove from game (one try, you’re done).
i actually liked the idea that someone had where backlash was changed to opponent can search their life decks for a block. If it was successful you won the game. Still lets you set up a perfect backlash without it being random.
I am all for changing text if its for balance and making a more diverse environment. Some of these die hard/purest sentiments are stupid considering its a once a year tourny thats supposed to be for fun.
last year changes shook up the meta, but id like to see some more turnover. The tourny was dominated by black.
What they should do is leave backlash banned. Then they should create another virtual card that does what they wanted backlash to be. That way there is no confusion.Now Roshi backlash can be played. .
Some of us play more than once a year, Josh. We run events every three months in the midwest. I guess in theory we could have whatever rules we want though.
yea, exactly my point
I’ve always been a fan of Vegeta level 2. It makes him almost playable in the sense that he won’t beat the top decks a majority of the time, but every now and then, he will.
As for Backlash, not all my games were won by Perfect Backlash. at 02 Nationals I think maybe only 3 or 4 victories were by Perfect Backlash. Another 4 or so I only was able to cover 2 of the 3 types (physical/energy/combat) but had to kinda guess which blocks my opponent was running.to get around this. The other 2 victories actually came by survival vs. TS Blue Mastery Decks (one of which ran the most f*ckin blocks I’ve ever seen). In my round 8 match vs a Piccolo deck, I actually had a turn 2 Perfect Backlash + Stunned to finish the swiss rounds undefeated (was pretty proud of that). So yeah, even though I didn’t try for random backlashes, it being there made the deck viable. With that being said, the deck I used for Nats was by far the hardest deck to pilot I had ever used. The amount of focus needed throughout a 2 day tournament is not something many people have (I know I start to play worse deeper into a tournament)
QUICK QUESTION!? can Dr. Williow win by most powerful personality victory? as far as retrodbz goes. I saw in an expanded ruling sheet that he cannot.
I didn’t read all this crap, and I don’t know what Baba did pre-nerf, so this may be out of line, BUT…
As far as the “red alert” list, you guys have GOT to stop messing with control/combo. Between the rules changes and the anti-control virtual cards, you already made it hard to play.
The “red alert” list is especially if you think they’re a problem with Baba. Nerfing real cards that are fine to help balance campy fake cards is a terrible idea, and at that point you guys should really just start designing Re-re-Z or something and leave this one to the purists.
PAHG, KC, and HAT not being restricted makes EDQ/other decks that combo playable after your sensei deck change. I can’t think of a way they’re overpowered unless somebody’s got results from tourneys where they got totally abused recently.
That being said…
Fuck Long Journey, I can’t believe that card isn’t RFG. And I’m okay with Vegeta getting a slight nerf, but I think it’ll end up like PTT where you can’t really balance him, and have to neuter him instead.
*hugZ*
None of these changes would be to balance or assist Virtual Cards.
One thing that I would change is Severe Bruises. The way it is worded now, the effect would last until the end of the game or until your opponent plays a drill whichever comes first. The floating effect doesn’t go away when they discard Severe Bruises like it does with Awful Abrasions or Terrible Wounds.
Unless a floating effect states it lasts for the remainder of the game, it only lasts until the end of Combat (or the turn, I forget which off hand, with the obvious exception of Drills). Worst case, it’s worse than it’s intended to be, but I don’t have the CRD or MWS on hand to check.
The CRD doesn’t state that anywhere. At all. Its kinda vague on floating effects. The rule book has more on it than the crd and it states that the effect lasts until the card states it expires. which in the case of severe bruises, would be until they play a drill. The others say “while attached”, Severe Bruises does not have that.
If floating effects lasted until the end of combat then cards like Saiyan Truce Card, Saiyan Beef etc.. would be useless. Severe Bruises is exactly the same as them, it lists a end to the floating effect which is “until a drill is played”
here we come errata-town!
Severe Bruises:
Place this card on your opponent’s main personality. Your opponent lowers his anger to zero and he may not raise his anger level until he places a Drill in play. Discard this card when your opponent places a Drill in play. Limit 1 per deck. Remove from the game after use.
I think what you meant was remove this card from the game when your opponent places a drill into play. Not “Discard this card when your opponent places a Drill in play. Limit 1 per deck. Remove from the game after use.” We know what you mean though.
That’s the exact wording on the card. The only thing the errata I have in it says for this card is “this card does not say “remove from the game after use”. Otherwise, I was copying the text of the card exactly.
After listening to what everybody has said I’ve moved Vegeta, Settled Down to the Yellow Alert list. If any changes happen they will be made in April plenty of time before Gencon.
Red Alert List
Krillin’s Concentration
Piccolo and Heroes Gather
Long Journey
Hercules Amazing Techniques
Yellow Alert List
Vegeta, Settled Down
Just wondering, what are the actual complaints you guys have had from these decks?
Cards*
And could we see deck lists or recorded games that display the abuse?
Ban all the cards you want, as long as you un-ban Dream Machine Battle at the same time 😀