Does Victorious Drill need to go or be changed? I think so. No card has had as detrimental effect on the game as good old Vic Drill. Originally only meant to have 32 copies of the card out there (or at least this is implied by the “Top 32” text in the lore box), this card has since gone on to become practically a staple after being mass released in the tournament circuit and now just being a printable proxy card. It is rare to find a deck that does not run this card these days.
FRIEZA WAS RIGHT!
All and all the card isn’t too great, the only thing that really makes it playable is that it starts the game in play. Other than You’re Invited, this is the only card in the game that does this and at the time this card came out, there was no Majin Buu Saga Freestyle Mastery to keep it around for nearly the entire game or Energy Lob to make it a piece of a combo puzzle. Honestly, the introduction of Energy Lob is when I felt the card really began to overreach and start going beyond whatever the card was meant to do, but I think it was a problem card all the way back to when it was initially released.
This card is single-handedly the reason why casual/slime anger and progressive leveling is not viable in the game. Effectively resetting anger every combat (or at best cutting it in half), personalities that have powers that gain small amounts of anger like Krillin or running a few combat cards with a little bit of anger are almost completely negated. You cannot slowly gain anger with the intention of leveling up with Victorious Drill in the game. Any deck that wants to gain a level or two in the Vic Drill environment must either run enough anger gain to pop up a level in a single combat, run Aura Clash, use Goku Sensei or run one of a handful of gimmick cards that lets you jump levels.
And really Vic Drill isn’t a detriment to the environment for its game effect, it’s the fact that it starts in play is where it becomes a problem. I would be fine if this was a silver bullet card against anger that you drew into your hand and played it as normal, but this is a card that is run simply because it’s a “free card” that starts in play that has a useful effect. Even decks that eschew non-combat cards make an exception for Vic Drill. Really the only decks that don’t run a copy are typically ally decks.
I would propose errata for it that the card either A) no longer starts the game in play or B) no longer lowers anger by two. It would probably still see use with option B, but I expect the card to evaporate from deck lists with option A. So what do you think?
Note: This is just an opinion piece by me and should not be construed as impending errata or a poll for such. Just some friendly discussion.
Later, BroZ
I don’t feel there’s a problem with it, but I agree with your point that it stopped being used for what it was made for after Energy Lob came out. The card was never leaked to get over 32 in the environment and by the 2002 worlds tournament I believe the 2001 cards were already being mass released as tournament prizes so I’m not sure it was only intended to have 32 in the world. I’m sure having proxies of it has increased the amount of players using it, but it wasn’t very hard to get even in the old game. By the time you get to the top whatever number of participants you have in tournaments now (8 people?) everyone was probably using it at that point in topcut anyway.
If anything was going to happen to it, it should be option A. B makes no sense and is just pushing it towards that energy lob combo even further when you start to take away the actual uses the card may have from its own powers. If most decks running it aren’t even playing lob then they’ll have it just because there’s no effort into putting it in play. You might decrease the amount of people using it by making the power worse, but then its only use is going to be for lob.
Lob will still have You’re Invited, which has a little more staying power than VD. Remember that VD also raises your power stages, which I like since many early personalities have such low PURs.
A simple fuck no will suffice.
I’m really hoping this is a late april fools joke.
Anyone that has average skills with a anger deck can work around this drill pretty easily. It can stay in play all game and you will only get hit by it once, maybe twice. Anger has no problems with this card.
If this card ever gets changed because it wasn’t meant to be mass produced, then that is a pandoras box that you don’t want opened. Lets start changing champ drill, champ aura, your invited, black lunge, every ultra rare, all hard to get promos etc…. Lets just stop using proxies all together and force people to buy cards again to solve the problem. What ya guys think? I think its a great idea for the game.
BAN PROXIES!!!
Ban Proxies is right!
i understand the post above was sarcastic, though i hate the use of proxies, it’s not 2003 so no, i don’t actually mean we should ban proxies. Some of my sentiments about proxies are voiced in this “article” though. With the use of proxies, (damn you score) many cards that you don’t always see in play become staples which changes the dynamic of the game, (in my opinion not a good way)
i don’t really have any issue with this drill as many of you have said, anger decks can outsmart this.
This honestly just sounds like you wanting to change something for the sake of changing things with no real reason. How many decks that use Vic Drill as early Lob fodder have won an event?
I think you guys are misunderstanding the reasoning. Vic Drill is not a win condition, nor does it stop a dedicated anger deck from winning. What it does do is make anger gain pointless in any non-MPPV deck.
Like Namekian. Can’t get above lv 1 without including alot of non namek cards with vic drill out.
I think there is enough non-combat hate to deal with vic drill. Red alone has multiple non-combat removal, and to deal with freestyle buu, North Kai Sensei gives cards with discard some meat against it. So i think it’s fine as is, just annoying.
So how about a Saiyan or Black deck that has a few cards that gain anger, but not much of the way in Drill removal? Same with Blue, which has a few more options, or any other deck that has cards that can gain anger and level up over a few combats? Are those decks intended to be “Level One Squatters” only? Are the only options if you want to seriously advance levels either running Red or running a gimmick?
Again, many of you seem fixated on Red MPPV decks, but that’s not the victim of this card. It’s any deck that doesn’t aim to level up in a single combat.
Maybe it’s worse now that tech is in the SD but my black deck’s have never had an issue with drill tech. I could understand not wanting to sensei them in if it’s just for 1 drill, but there should still be some main deck stuff to take care of it. I don’t play Saiyan as much but when I play against it they are hitting my drills quite often too so I expect they should be able to deal with a vic drill.
It can stop slow anger decks from levelling up if they don’t care enough about it to get rid of it. It would be nice to see more decks using multiple levels but it’s not a good strategy for most decks so I don’t know how much we can expect that to change even if vic drill is gone. Aura clash was mentioned below and that’s probably the best solution for a deck that wants to gain 1-2 levels during a game. Maybe a new virtual card that only raises the person using it a level would help, so there’s no concerns over helping the opponent get stronger too. I don’t really think that’s needed either but it at least would help more than changing vic drill.
“No card has had as detrimental effect on the game as good old Vic Drill.”
The two cards with the most detrimental effects on the game were Master Roshi, and PTT. Roshi’s MPP held your hand through the entire game, letting even the worst deckbuilders avoid drawing into a garbage hand. Roshi was so OP that the only counter to him was PTT. PTT on the other hand made decks based on personality powers worthless in the tournament environment. Want to run a Bardock, Pui Pui, Andriod 20, Bojack, Andriod 16, Cell, Andriod 19, etc. based deck? PTT says too bad. PTT’s MPP is just as bad as a card that permenently shuts down a mastery. How would people feel about a card that stayed in play the entire game and shut off the opponent’s mastery for the entire game? How boring would a game be in which basing a deck around masteries wasn’t tournament viable?
Should Vic Drill be removed? Yes, because it’s a card that hold’s the player’s hand giving them a no brainer counter to anger, and it makes decks based on gaining levels less viable. Also, unless Lob has been changed it gives people a no brainer combo that let’s them get 21 allies in play on the first turn of the game. Imagine if anger decks had a combo that let them be level 4 by turn one!
Very interesting article, but I don’t know if either solutions are that great. Like mentioned in a previous post, you still have You’re Invited for Energy Lob, and “slime anger” hasn’t ever really been viable since we started creating those insane anti-anger cards to combat the speed of Red Anger. So I don’t think either of the suggested changes would have enough impact for the results that you are wanting.
And to those responding, please calm the F down. If your answer is “no, I don’t like the changes”, please give supporting reasons. But “a simple fuck no will suffice” is not helpful, adds no additional topics or points to discuss, and… well… just really makes you come off looking like an ass. Yeah, I know where it comes from. You wouldn’t be playing DBZ 7+ years after its official death unless you were passionate about the game in some way, shape, or form. But there’s a major difference between disagreeing with something and tossing a Moltov Cock-ment that could easily start a flame war. We already talk enough shit when we play games against each other, no? 😛
Chippy
Let’s Be Civil 🙂
+1 for understanding this was a topic meant to create discussion, not a simple poll or reason to act immature.
I see no reason for any change for this card. Any decks I have made or currently have right now all and always have some kind of drill removal or non-combat hate. This drill never stays out too long when I play and it’s only 1 per deck so it’s no where near “overpowered”. I see where you are going with this but seriously, if a deck gets shut down or impossible to run just because of this one card, then the deck isn’t very good to begin with. No change is necessary for this card.
P.S. I don’t run this card for the same reason that it doesn’t stay out in play for very long. I can put a better card in place for it.
I agree, I wouldn’t mind seeing it maybe changed to lower anger by 1. That alone I think would be reasonable.
I would have to agree with this. This seems like thee most efficient way to balance the card, without changing a whole lot.
Maybe having Energy Lob target “Non-Combat/Non-Drill” cards would be a good way to keep Victorious Drill from being abused.
It’s an interesting article for sure. I recall back in the day getting lobbed for ZWG and getting spirit bombed like 2 turns later, but that was also an epic draw to the game that is probably like 1 in 1,000 chance of happening. I never was a fan of the anger decks, from a playing standpoint. There are still so many ways to deal with anger that Vic Drill alone isnt going to stop it.
This isn’t meant to sound sarcastic, but does anyone really make anger decks just to go up one or two levels? I haven’t really encountered a lot of them or recall them. IMO wouldn’t you use an aura clash or something to go up a level and use cards in your deck that have more ally, drill, noncombat hate instead?
Just my thoughts. And how would Vic drill work with Freestyle MBS mastery? Technically you can’t discard the drill, so would you get a noncombat for free or is the discarding of the drill the actual cost to get another card.
AND if you have more of an issue with the fact that you could lob Vic drill, just errata lob to say that you can’t use Vic Drill, You’re invited or any noncombat that starts the game in play. So you could get rid of fishing drill in expanded. Interesting point of view though 🙂
One solution would be to not allow proxies of Championship cards and/or Ultra Rares, but if one could say that certain cards are not allowed to be proxied, then what keeps other annoying/potentially over powered cards from not being proxied as well?
Personally, I would not use proxies of Tournament cards, as I did not earn them, as opposed to other proxies that since the game is no longer in print, I can not obtain through normal means. This is my personal view though.
The best way I could see to errata the card and still keep it competitive, would be to add to then end of the text: “Your opponent may search through their Life Deck for a [Freestyle] Drill and place it into play.” or to have the effect of lowering Anger happen once per game.
There are so many reasons why this is a horrible, ill conceived idea I don’t even know where to start.
First, slime anger hasn’t been a thing since Trunks Saga. If you are relying on 1-2 anger a combat to get to level 2 or higher then you will have lost before ever getting there anyway since in Retro, most games with well built decks don’t last more than 2 combats. Victorious Drill has NO impact on that. Want to level up without being a full blown anger deck? Then use Aura Clash. Or one of the 230490234234089 cards that discard drills or non-combats.
If you rely on Vic Drill solely for the lower anger two as your go to anger defense, then that’s a recipe for disaster.
And the whole VD/Lob thing is bogus and more of the continued attack against any deck that’s not just a MP, mastery and sensei running 77 attacks. A deck trying to do some Energy Lob/Vic Drill early combo have been no where near winning a tournament scene so I have no clue why there would be issue here. It just seems to be more bias towards control and dragon ball decks.
Here is the flaw with the logic of “only 32 people were supposed to have them”: It equates to the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. So you’re saying only the very fortunate were supposed to have good cards? People with deep pockets? Or that players who would win godly cards in events were only intended to use them, so they would always have an unfair advantage against the less fortunate player? Since many players were in the top because they had deep pockets to begin with since this was always a money game.
A reason why I run Victorious Drill in Retro formats is so I have 2 extra stages available when someone gets a lucky die roll and goes first and blindly declares combat first turn with three random cards to my three random cards. Normally that sets the tone for the rest of the game so instead of playtesting I should just start doing witchcraft to ensure I get lucky and always win every die roll.
You say that “the only deck that doesn’t run Vic Drill is an ally deck” is simply not accurate. Red or Blue anger have no need for it either. I would never play it with Broly, Zarbon or Willow either.
“If you are relying on 1-2 anger a combat to get to level 2 or higher then you will have lost before ever getting there anyway since in Retro, most games with well built decks don’t last more than 2 combats.”
How are most games only lasting one to two combats? Is the tournament scene nothing but speedball, and Goku’s draw a billion attacks beatdown?
Wow, what a head debate. Some really interesting discussion around here.
I’m all for banning proxies, but I can say that because I don’t use them.
Having never really played against VD I don’t know the extent of its power, but I do run a red anger deck and does not a red anger deck run cards that can remove this card? I understand the idea is that VD really screws over anger gainers?
I’m going to have to echo others here and say this drill shouldn’t be touched.
One of the things my brother said to me after the last year’s tournament was that Vic Drill was his biggest (maybe he meant ONLY :P) problem. Yes, it is easy to remove, but that fact is you have to spend the time and cards to remove it instead of doing something else. While it’s easy for Red to jump a level per combat and act like Vic Drill isn’t there, it’s just as easy for his opponent to disrupt him leaving him just shy of a level and letting Vic pick up the slack nicely. My first instinct tells me Red Anger wouldn’t go nuts without everyone playing Vic and rather force people to play the other amazing anger tech cards (Mind Control Device, Severe Bruises etc), but I can’t say for sure.
The main reason why this drill shouldn’t be touched to me is it’s impact on beatdown. Specifically not letting it hit the field first turn giving two power stages would be such a huge buff to physical beats. Sure, they like power stages too, but as long as they’re not at zero (I’m looking at you Evil Buu), two stages matters not. However I can recall time and time again being entered on after taking a beating and having Vic be my only stage gain. Even if I don’t have a block, that 2 stages is probably saving me 4-6 damage. Also, consider how much energy beatdown relies on those 2 stages. Low PURs are rampant as you said. Most personalities will only be getting 1 energy per power up step without the help of Vic.
If you were going to change it, the only options I would consider are removing the anger or lowing it to 1 anger, and I would prefer the latter. I get what you’re talking about with slime anger and I bet decks like King Kai Black would love a change like this, but if they’re really interested in leveling like that, Goku Sensei is always there.
To those saying “ban proxies” (be it a sweeping ban or targeted ban), keep in mind many players would just quit if that were the case. The game is long since ended, so why does it matter if this card is a little piece of paper or a little piece of cardboard? I know I sure as hell wouldn’t play if I had to go rebuy all these cards that are scarce. Or are you just trying to get a competitive advantage because you already have the cards? There’s no logical reason to banning proxies at all.
Saiyjin hit it, the people wanting to ban proxies are looking for an edge because its the only thing the can grasp on to.
Proxies make it a game of skill and not resources. Some people want to remove that since they may be lacking and get the edge they might not have enjoyed a decade or more ago.
I get the whole collectible aspect of this card game. I was the same way when the game was alive and wouldn’t even theorycraft decks if I didn’t have the cards. The point is, the collectible aspect of this game is dead. You just can’t get the cards without breaking the bank. This now has to be a stand alone game and be playable in its complete form.
Instead of wanting to van proxies people should use it to lure in people from other games since it wouldn’t cost anything to play and thus expand the player pool.
Agree 100%, proxies will never go away and are not even a debate worth having. This will never be a pay-to-win game as long as Retro is hosting the events. We want players to have a good time and play what they want, not what they can afford. Be judged on their overall skill, not how much they’re willing to overpay for old cards.
That’s a post I can stand behind. We are on the same page.
I completely agree. I’m the kind of person who spends ungodly amounta on thos game, foils out decks, gets playsets of every edition of promos, and I support proxies 100%. I love this game, and alienating players is not a way to make it better. Its the same as Vintage Magic. Just because your not willing to spend thousands on cards doesn’t mean youb shouldn’t be allowed to play.
As for the vic drill change conversation, I don’t think it’s that big of a deal. It doesn’t have an oppressing effect on the format, and the decks that rely on it don’t really nees to be hit anyway. If anything I’d say You’re Invites is more troublesome. It can destroy decks that want to set up a little and can completely put you out of the game. If youbhappen to draw a noncombat and 2 weaker cards and get Invited on your turn, chances are you won’t live to have another. Beatdown is already a major force; it doesn’t need to be given a bazooka as well.
If anything, perhaps a drill can be created…
Endurance 2.
(If your opponent places one or more cards into play at the beginning of the game (and you did not place any cards into play at the beginning of the game): Search your life deck for this card and place it into play at the beginning of the first turn.)
Choose one card that was placed into play at the beginning of the game. That card may not be used or discarded while this drill is in play. Limit 1 per deck.